Curse

Daesu · Mar 14, 2011, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by amber dawn

It has been said they should not allow people to farm the daily quest to gain exp for a title.
If this is true then shouldn't they not allow ppl to farm any quest in the game for any title?

If I am wrong please point out why someone should be able to farm the quest in NF for ss/lb titles or path to revelations for norn title. But not this one for ldoa.

There have been ppl that have played the game without ever farming the same quest over and over for a title. If there is a thread where these ppl have requested that others not be allowed to repeatedly farm a quest for a title then I apologize and will say nothing further.

It is not so much whether they allow or disallow people to farm any quest in the game for title, there is nothing they can do about it because the game is based on area instances.

Even if they fix the quest abandonment, they can't prevent people from simply mapping out of the quest and doing this repeatedly. Even if they try, they have to consider other factors, there are also legit reasons why someone would want to map out of a quest (e.g. wrong gear, mom called, etc.). The most they can do, is to make the spawn mob level mapped to the lower level player in the team to discourage EXP monkey.

Fortunately for ss/lb, people don't care as much because there are MANY other less boring ways to achieve the titles(e.g. books, missions, DoA, vanquishing, etc.). LDoA, however, does not have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horus Moonlight

This idea of death-leveling being an exploit (in the context that Daesu uses it) is lulzy at best. There are no natural laws of morality with regard to gameplay (gameplay. not social interactions) in GuildWars (or any other game for that matter). What is deemed bad is what Anet says is bad. What is deemed good is what Anet says is good. Seeing as there is a link in which Anet encourages death-leveling, it can only be assumed that death-leveling is not an exploit. How a single individual may feel about it has no bearing on the method's validity, integrity, etc. If Anet said running dungeons was an exploit, then it would be for all intents and purposes, an exploit.

Then name me a quest where it asks you to repeatedly be killed by monsters as to death level them? How does death leveling fit in with the story of the game?

Why encourage LDoA? Because ANet wants to support titles and encourage people to continue playing this 6 years old game, so they have to encourage people to go for LDoA for this business reason EVEN IF they have to rely on an existing game exploit. The only reason why ANet HAD TO allow the death leveling exploit because that was the ONLY way to get LDoA before the update. If they have stopped it, then there would have been no more LDoA possible. Pre-searing wasn't designed from the beginning, to level players all the way to level 20 so they had to rely on an exploit.

Reformed · Mar 14, 2011, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by amber dawn

But not this one for ldoa.

Getting to level 20 in less than 15 hours in a glorified tutorial completely destroys the pacing in Prophecies. Unlike the tutorial islands in other campaigns where you not only have access to henchmen your party size begins at 4. Henchmen level is an accurate measure of where they expect you to be by design when leaving these areas and so are the levels of enemies you face. As has also been pointed out the amount you receive for quest rewards there is now double or even quadruple what you would receive in post-searing Ascalon through normal gameplay.

Not directed at anyone in particular but...if the complaint is that this is now too slow doesn't that automatically imply the initial update was too fast and you were only interested in this title because it was so incredibly easy to max?

melissa b · Mar 14, 2011, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Anet endorses fast-tracking the pacing...ie eotn access at level 10 with max armor and level 20 heroes. Vanguard Quest rewards are higher intentionally than post-searing Ascalon gameplay so players that choose to do the daily quest only will not have to do the same 9 quests over and over again, every day for 4 months to get the title. The initial update to LDOA was fast but sunspear is faster than it before and after the nerf. Also of course some people go for titles that are faster to complete for exampe to complete their hom score. Whats wrong with that?

Ghull Ka · Mar 14, 2011, 06:45 PM // 18:45

It's just so weird to me.

I know that if I go kill things solo, I'll get better xp than if I bring a friend.

I choose to bring a friend because it's fun to play with my friend. I even think, as I'm forming the team "o hey if i went solo i'd get more xp" -- but who cares? I'm playing with my friend online.

I don't feel "penalized" by bringing a friend, like some people in this thread do. That's a pretty crappy way to frame the whole thing. You're not being penalized, and if you're so sensitive to the amount of xp you get, well, you don't have to bring a friend if it'll bum you out so hard. But trying to claim the role of the victim? That's bizarre to me.

Reformed · Mar 14, 2011, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissa b

Whats wrong with that?

Failure to recognize poorly implemented content for what it is because it makes getting off that PvE treadmill just a little bit easier. EotN is an absolutely horrible place to compare the rest of the game to so lets not even go there. What is the big hurry anyways? It's not like GW2 is coming out tomorrow.

melissa b · Mar 14, 2011, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

Failure to recognize poorly implemented content for what it is because it makes getting off that PvE treadmill just a little bit easier. EotN is an absolutely horrible place to compare the rest of the game to so lets not even go there. What is the big hurry anyways? It's not like GW2 is coming out tomorrow.

Treadmill? Sounds like your taking the game too serious. Also, you might as well bracket most pve titles as too easy.

Eotn-I will go there if I want. Since its the most recent addition to the game, it is a better reference point to Anets position today.

GW2 is coming soon enough. Hurry no, obtaining titles in times similar to the time of other titles, why not? Also, whats with the need to drag out the time it takes titles to get?

Perhaps broken reference points are a problem, comparing the time it takes to get LDOA today to the old broken mechanic of death leveling and the time it took to obtain pre-update. If deathleveling never provided experience and the title LDOA was added March 3, 2011. Would it still be considered too fast? Although, the title would probably never be created in that case.

Midget Minionmaster · Mar 15, 2011, 12:30 AM // 00:30

A good idea to reduce the grinding:

if you abandon the quest you cant get it back. I realize that doesn't completely solve the problem, but it still helps.

Horus Moonlight · Mar 15, 2011, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Then name me a quest where it asks you to repeatedly be killed by monsters as to death level them? How does death leveling fit in with the story of the game?

Why encourage LDoA? Because ANet wants to support titles and encourage people to continue playing this 6 years old game, so they have to encourage people to go for LDoA for this business reason EVEN IF they have to rely on an existing game exploit. The only reason why ANet HAD TO allow the death leveling exploit because that was the ONLY way to get LDoA before the update. If they have stopped it, then there would have been no more LDoA possible. Pre-searing wasn't designed from the beginning, to level players all the way to level 20 so they had to rely on an exploit.

I don't need to name a quest that involves death-leveling. That's beside the point. Lore is a poor excuse to tag anything in the game as being appropriate or inappropriate; gameplay is always paramount. I'm in no place to speculate what ANet's reasoning was to include death leveling and neither are you. ANet has not taken an active stance against death leveling and outright encourages it. It is not an exploit.

Imaginos · Mar 15, 2011, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midget Minionmaster

A good idea to reduce the grinding:

if you abandon the quest you cant get it back. I realize that doesn't completely solve the problem, but it still helps.

That won't accomplish anything. The quests that are being farmed don't need to be abandoned to farm them.

The earlier suggestion of doubling or tripling the reward and making the foes give 0 exp is the only way to fix any sort of farming of these quests.

Daesu · Mar 15, 2011, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horus Moonlight

I don't need to name a quest that involves death-leveling. That's beside the point. Lore is a poor excuse to tag anything in the game as being appropriate or inappropriate; gameplay is always paramount. I'm in no place to speculate what ANet's reasoning was to include death leveling and neither are you. ANet has not taken an active stance against death leveling and outright encourages it. It is not an exploit.

Dude, death leveling IS an EXPLOIT not just because I say it is, even ANet calls it an exploit in their developer's update.

Quote:

Captain Langmar—or Lieutenant, as her rank was then—is making an appearance in Pre-Searing. She's got two good eyes and nine new daily quests with her. These quests will scale both in difficulty and rewards relative to the level of the player taking the quests. Because of this, these quests will always remain relevant to your character's growth if you are trying to reach level 20 in Pre-Searing.

This addition is mostly to provide a legitimate way for players to achieve the Legendary Defender of Ascalon title. Previously, this title was obtainable only through an unusual exploit of the game's mechanics: "death leveling." For this exploit, players allowed enemies to kill them repeatedly until the enemies leveled to a point where they were once again worth experience to the player. This was an incredibly time-consuming process, often requiring months to achieve. While this shows noble dedication from our players, we should not have encouraged such a counterintuitive style of playing. Instead, we are adding these daily quests to do the title justice and to let players legitimately play the game to earn the title. After all, do you really feel like a Legendary Defender of Ascalon after letting the charr kill you endlessly?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Devel...in_Pre-Searing

In any case, I see no point to continue arguing with you over whether it is an exploit or not. Believe what you will.

Gill Halendt · Mar 15, 2011, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horus Moonlight

ANet has not taken an active stance against death leveling and outright encourages it. It is not an exploit.

Simple logic says it is. Anything against the basic design of the game is technically an exploit -> that is exploiting some unexpected/unforeseen mechanics in the game to get benefits.

It's not something they feel like taking an active stance against, just like many other "exploits" in the game, from running to ferrying, you name it.

Still, that doesn't imply it's not an exploit.

Gli · Mar 15, 2011, 11:46 AM // 11:46

The developer's update shouldn't have referred to death leveling as an exploit, because as per this link, using exploits will result in account suspension or termination. This is clearly not what's going to happen if you're caught death leveling. They even created a title for it as a reward, when the act became apparent to them.

With vague handling of terms that appear in their legal notices, they only create an environment of confusion, and grounds for people to defend their actions by excuses like: "Oh, sure, I knew it was an exploit, I just didn't know it was a bannable exploit."

Gill Halendt · Mar 15, 2011, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

The developer's update shouldn't have referred to death leveling as an exploit, because as per this link, using exploits will result in account suspension or termination.

We've already discussed this argument.

When reading EULAs:

Quote:

Abusing game exploits.

Advertising cheats, hacks, and exploits

usually refers to bug exploits. There's no bug involved here, as a "bug" for the developers is a logic or syntax error in the code provoking a glitch, not a design flaw or issue as the derogative use of the term might suggest.

As a programmer and developer myself, I'd define death-levelling a design flaw, not a bug.

Also worth mentioning:

Quote:

Some account actions come as the result of staff member observations; others came as the results of player report. All player reports are fully investigated.

We will take action and place account marks only after careful consideration and a review of all available facts.

Obviously, we do not terminate the accounts of Guild Wars players without cause. We exercise careful judgment in every case of an account termination, and we will use the mark system instead of outright account termination if that seems sufficient to address the misbehavior. However, we will review breaches of the Rules of Conduct and the User Agreement with close attention to the most flagrant forms of rules abuse. In instances like these, particularly when we perceive a risk of substantial real or potential harm to the Guild Wars community or to the game's stability, an account can and will be permanently terminated.

So bannable offenses are entirely at their discretion. If they felt death-levelling was not game-breaking and rather chose to design a title around it and let it go, it's their choice and their faculty to do so.

Quote:

Report hacks and exploits and do not use them yourself

As far as I know, death-levelling was well documented and reported. They reacted to the report with the introduction of a title. Again, it was their faculty to do so and not to ban the early adopters.

Gli · Mar 15, 2011, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

We've already discussed this argument.

<snip>

As far as I know, death-levelling was well documented and reported. They reacted to the report with the introduction of a title. Again, it was their faculty to do so and not to ban the early adopters.

I know all that.

And because all of that, I'm questioning the wisdom to call it an 'exploit' in a recent developer update. 'Exploit' is a loaded term.

Daesu · Mar 15, 2011, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

And because all of that, I'm questioning the wisdom to call it an 'exploit' in a recent developer update. 'Exploit' is a loaded term.

Like I have said, ANet should not have encouraged abusing this exploit, however it was the ONLY way for players to get LDoA before the update.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dev Update

, this title was obtainable only through an unusual exploit of the game's mechanics: "death leveling." ...we should not have encouraged such a counterintuitive style of playing....Instead, we are adding these daily quests to do the title justice and to let players legitimately play the game to earn the title.

And that is what why I have been saying that death leveling exploit should and can be expected to be fixed since there are now legitimate ways of obtaining the LDoA title.

The reason for fixing that is because there have been many complaints from you guys that the LDoA title has becomes too easy to obtain by people exploiting death leveling on the quest spawns.

Ghull Ka · Mar 15, 2011, 03:18 PM // 15:18

^All much ado about nothing. The LDoA title track didn't code itself. GW isn't self-aware. It's a video game, not SkyNet.

The people who design the game deliberately took the time to design and implement a title track which could ONLY be accomplished by death leveling.

Therefore, people crying about death leveling have noooooooooooooo leg to stand on, and should find other things to cry about.

Gill Halendt · Mar 15, 2011, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

I know all that.

And because all of that, I'm questioning the wisdom to call it an 'exploit' in a recent developer update. 'Exploit' is a loaded term.

Not a loaded term at all.

Exploit is just what death levelling is. It relied on the exploitation of a game mechanic (the one that governs levelups) for unintended benefits to the user.

Like with many other game exploits that don't involve code bugs but rather abused design flaws or unforeseen solutions - think of 55HP builds, ferrying and such - , they chose not to act against exploiters, making it a non-bannable exploit, and rather legitimized it by tailoring a title around it.

When they got the chance, they provided a more legit way to reach the same results, trying to discourage the abuse of such exploit.

That's it, their stance about death-levelling.

Gli · Mar 15, 2011, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Not a loaded term at all.

When abusing an 'exploit' may get your account terminated, I'd call it a loaded term. Argue semantics any way you like, but when they decide to reward a very specific activity with a tailor-made title for it, they shouldn't be calling it an exploit after that. It was an exploit before they created the LDoA title, but when they did that, they elevated it to an encouraged playing style.

Why would a gaming company label something an exploit when they specifically and unequivocally reward the activity? That's just dumb. Exploits, you fix. You don't heap extra rewards upon the 'exploiters'.

Gill Halendt · Mar 15, 2011, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

They elevated it to an encouraged playing style.

But still based on an exploit. They just encouraged their players to exploit a game mechanic to get a title. Debatable, but you can't cancel the past, what's done cannot be undone.

To me, that just means they have not taken actions against it so far, but no reaction doesn't change things. Exploit it was and exploit it is, even if they condone it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Why would a gaming company label something an exploit when they specifically and unequivocally reward the activity? That's just dumb. Exploits, you fix. You don't heap extra rewards upon the 'exploiters'.

"Exploit" is not a technicality here, "Exploit" is an English word.

This IS an exploit, just not one they're dishing out bans for. So I don't see why they should be calling it differently when they finally decide to provide alternative solutions.

Reformed · Mar 15, 2011, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

The people who design the game deliberately took the time to design and implement a title track which could ONLY be accomplished by death leveling.

All good points. I could have sworn they removed the ability to do this (later returning it) but after pouring over the archive couldn't find anything in writing. It was most definitely a well documented and widely known part of the game in any event. Considering how truly harmless and localized this was, not to mention time consuming, throwing around 'exploit' sure does make it sound dirty. Just a final thought...a highly sped up version of this is what many people used to speed level pets before taming in the Menagerie (hosted on PvX too at one point iirc?). If you honestly think this was just limited to pre-searing, think again.